Curse

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 18, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verek

as soon as they introduced the PVE only skills, and the 'Bear win button', any scintilla of balance was extinguished from PVE.

I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.

Chthon · Apr 18, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Now if your necro just sits there and doesn't spam much so he is almost at full energy each time something dies, then of course the rest of the SR bonus would go into overflow but the fact remains...you are already at full energy when that happens!

You do not understand. Just because your energy is near full for the first 3 kills does not mean that it will stay there. It's entirely possible, even likely, to spend down your entire bar before SR turns back on. And it's entirely possible, likely if your team is good, to wipe the mob before SR turns back on. That leaves you with an empty energy bar and almost no energy gained through SR at the end of the battle.
This state of affairs is somewhat OK for the curse necro. It's like you're a mesmer, only with 10+ invested in an attribute that did nothing the whole battle. You can just regen between battles.
However, for the MM, (that's the build SR was supposed to synergize with if you've forgotten), this is a huge problem. Maintaining an army costs very nearly your full 4 pips (and more than 4 pips if your build is designed poorly), so regenerating between battles is impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

1. As far as energy management goes Anet just needs to make SoLS a core skill.

SoLS is actually a terrible skill compared to the attunements and even GoLE. Everyone gets excited because it's the best non-elite e-management available to necros (except Maso in sac builds), but it's still bad in an absolute sense, and still nowhere near adequate as a replacement for SR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You aren't alone! Chthon is keeping you company!

Upier, you're a troll. You trolled the old SR threads. You made this thread as a troll. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.

You are exactly right. Having a SR that worked properly for PvE MM's would in no way hurt anyone else's enjoyment. Fixing it hurts no one. Leaving it broken bothers people. Fix it.

shru · Apr 18, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

SoLS is actually a terrible skill compared to the attunements and even GoLE. Everyone gets excited because it's the best non-elite e-management available to necros (except Maso in sac builds), but it's still bad in an absolute sense, and still nowhere near adequate as a replacement for SR.

SoLS is not a bad skill, but just slightly redundant in a few rare cases. (the same argument holds true for several skills, Archer's Signet being a more obvious and greater impacted one)
If you're in need of the extra energy, you must spec a decent amount into SR to recieve the benefits of taking SoLS, but at the same time, specing higher into SR might eleminate the need for SoLS all together. Now this is obviously not true in a few builds that only require the excessive use of one and sometimes two attributes (N/Rt's and MM's both benefit greatly from the never ending supply of energy) but in less traditional builds, it could cause a slight problem.
Basicly, it's a great skill in spammy gimmicks. But it loses effectiveness in that in order to increase its E-managment ability, you're effectively reducing the need for said increase.

And back to the matter at hand:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Do you think that Soul Reaping is underpowered in PvE and does it need to be buffed?

Yes
No

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why?

Sab tought us why.

Carinae · Apr 18, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.

Balance in PvE revolves around making sure dominant "play-this-and-win" builds don't exist. You want rough parity across the board with various builds and classes. Certainly, some builds are always going to be 'tuned' to specific areas, and that's OK. You DON'T want some builds to be equivalant to a "Win" button everywhere.

Ursan Blessing and Sabway are two current examples of this, and that automatically raises a Red Flag for those builds. In general, "Win" builds are not good for the game. Even bad players have a hard time losing with these builds.

Save Yourself is in a slightly different category. Actually, it's in the same category as MM. These builds are strong defensively for the entire party, but the rest of the party is still playing GW normally, with whatever build they want. As such, they aren't "Win" builds in-and-of-themselves, although they are very strong strategies.

The Meth · Apr 18, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

SoLS is actually a terrible skill compared to the attunements and even GoLE. Everyone gets excited because it's the best non-elite e-management available to necros (except Maso in sac builds), but it's still bad in an absolute sense, and still nowhere near adequate as a replacement for SR.

SoLS is a great skill, what the heck are you talking about?

GoLE at 0 Energy Storage = 2 energy regen if used on recharge
Soul Reaping at 12 = 7 energy regen (thats max mind you, as everyone has said circumstances can make it worse)
SoLS at 12 soul reaping = consistent 3 energy regen if you can use on recharge. You will also gain 82 health, which isn't that great, but its a 5 energy heal you are saving your team. If including the energy someone would have used to heal you, you have about 4.5 pips of energy regen

So, if Soul Reaping nerfed to +3ish regen, along with Signet of Lost Souls it is nearly as powerful as SR alone used to be, and there is no chance of wasted SR energy with being hit with 14s of 0 energy gain from getting screwed by the timer.

Don't bash SoLS just because its an energy management that takes a small amount of skill to use, as opposed to just sitting around twiddling your thumbs while SR fills you up. I think actually forcing MM's to have some battle awareness is a good change away from a 1-2-3-sometimes 4 button mash that it takes now.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 18, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Balance in PvE revolves around making sure dominant "play-this-and-win" builds don't exist. You want rough parity across the board with various builds and classes. Certainly, some builds are always going to be 'tuned' to specific areas, and that's OK. You DON'T want some builds to be equivalant to a "Win" button everywhere.

I agree that if I had struggled to put together a good build and some talented friends to be able to beat some of the more difficult areas of the game and later, a group full of goof ups were able to beat the same area using Ursan, I'd probably be ticked off too. However, I doubt if any decent players are using Ursan. I know I tried it for a few areas and it quickly sucked the fun from my game - so I don't use Ursan. I understand your point on the matter, but previously when people spoke of balance in GW - they were talking about PVP.

About SoLS, I tried it for a while and found that I rarely used it. On a Curse and Especially a Death skill bar there are just way too many good skills to use when I almost never run out of energy. This may sound bad, but if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.

Carinae · Apr 18, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

SoLS is an awful skill for a Minion Master. It sucks, and isn't on any serious MM builds ever. It's OK for Blood/Curses necros, however, because they ARE playing against their enemies.

MM's don't cycle through targets, don't focus fire, and aren't really playing against their opponents. They are playing against themselves, against the clock if you will. They are focusing on maintaining their web-effect as best as possible. They are monitoring SR for triggers, recycling minions, mashing BotM on-recharge, and running booster skills as much as possible.

SoLS takes a MM out of that mode. He has to find a target under 50% health and use the skill before it dies, neither of which are trivial. All the while, time is ticking away on the minion engine, because he's doing something that is irrelevant to the build. And on top of that, you don't get enough energy to be of any significant help with what you're doing.

Heroes run SoLS well, because that's how their AI works. It's easy for them to do all that checking in a millisecond. The only real synergy it has with a MM build is that it's a SR skill, and MM's run lots of SR. Possibly it's an emergency heal or emergency energy buff, but those are BOTH outshown by Consume Corpse.

Consume Corpse buries SoLS from a MM perspective. It doesn't have to be targeted and it doesn't have a recharge. The only apparent drawback, the random teleport, isn't actually a drawback at all....because there is NO recharge. Just use it again to get out of a bad spot.

That said, it's still ridiculous to ask someone to invest 66+ attribute points AND a skill slot for e-management. Ridiculous! If I'm going to invest that many attribute points, the effect NEEDS to be there ALL THE TIME. And if it's there ALL the time, I don't need to also bring a e-management skill.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.

Yes.

The Meth · Apr 19, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

snip

Ok, so your whole arguement against SoLS can be summed up as this: "I am too lazy to be able to find a target <50% health. I like being able to play MM without even watching the screen". I just said the energy from SoLS is about 1/2 that gained by SR at its best, don't say its a trivial amount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

if you really need SoLS, your team lacks dmg and you probably need to fix your team build rather than rely on a signet that only gives 10 energy at 15 in SR.

Right now, yes. I didn't say SoLS is required now for a necro build. I said that its use would be able to make up the energy lost if SR was nerfed by 50%ish. The only reason that SR isn't stapled to every necro's bar is that it is in the attribute line that already gives you infinite energy. If SR was tuned down a bit, SoLS would be everywhere.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 19, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

@ The Meth: OK, you're talking about a hypothetical situation - my bad.

?

upier · Apr 19, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Upier, you're a troll. You trolled the old SR threads. You made this thread as a troll. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off.

You are actually thinking that your suggestions or views are balanced?
Like seriously?

Carinae · Apr 19, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

@Upier - Chthon's views are right on, I haven't seen anything that's unbalanced. As you haven't suggested anything other than total capitulation to PvP balance, I can't make an evaluation that you know what balance is either.

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.

I do know what it means. This fixes everything. I've discussed this extensively with Ensign, for months and months. He agrees wholeheartedly. I talked to him again tonight, he still agrees. I've explained it to Izzy. I've explained the suggestion extensively here as well.

This thread needs to be closed.

Turbobusa · Apr 19, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Ho our bad, 2 people agreed on a solution. This needs to be implemented by tomorrow. not.

Seriously, I don't know what you want to fix. N/Rts? It's not like they are un beatable. Blood spike is dead,
Why do you want to change a mechanic that's not broken at the moment, 3 years after it's been released? The firstSR changes were there because there was abuses ran, now only N/Rts are "abusing" soul reaping, and still it only works in gimmick that need to kill at least once to get there "advantage". They can't prot effectively.
The rest of the builds still works if you have any clue on how to play the game.
It's not like MMs are a problem anywhere now.

Longasc · Apr 19, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I see no chance to "fix" Soul Reaping in GW1 without fundamentally changing the whole class desin.

I just wonder what they will do to Necros in GW2, I keep a bucket ready to vomit...^^

upier · Apr 19, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.

This improves SR.
That is NOT needed.

The best indicator of showing how insanely overpowered SR is was the removal of the energy gain from spirits. Spirits helped emulate PvE conditions in PvP.

SR needs a straight up nerf. No balancing or toying around with various options - it needs to just get worse.

And this shows why the obvious lack of understanding of the balance is present:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now you've got 15sec of no energy at all, and you only gained 25e total.

Gaining 25 energy (absolutely passively for that matter!) NEVER warrants the use of the word "only".

Chthon · Apr 19, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with an unbounded Soul Reaping is that it completely removes the element of energy management from the profession - any time the question "should I use this skill now?" question was asked the answer is yes because the unlimited energy pool meant that you didn't lose anything by not casting.

That's an argument with putting an upper bound on SR, but not an argument for keeping the 15sec timer. You want people to look at their energy and their recharging skills and the battle situation and decide "is it better to cast spell X now, or save the energy and cast spell Y a little later?" The problem is: the SR timer does NOT encourage people to make that sort of decision any more than unbounded SR did. With the SR timer in place randomizing what ought to be somewhat predictable energy gains, the answer to that question is always: "Damned if I know! I might gain enough energy to pay for both before Y recharges, or I might gain none; but I have to choose right now before I find out how much energy I'll actually have." And so the best choice is still "yes, use the skill now (and pray for SR later)" and necromancer "energy management" becomes about building a skillbar where every skill is always worth it rather than about making intelligent choices about how to spend your limited, and known amount of energy available.

The Meth · Apr 19, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

snip

Yes, thats basically the problem.

Before the SR nerf, you had infinite energy.
After the SR nerf, you have infinite energy 95% of the time, and far less 5% of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Remove the SR timer.
Remove minion/spirits triggering SR entirely.
Significantly lower the costs of minion Animation spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This improves SR.
That is NOT needed.

That would, actually, be a very decent change. Minions and spirits are the true thing that overpowers SR. Without minions, taking off the SR timer only affects you if you get more then 3 kills in 15 seconds. And if you get 4 kills in 15 seconds, you have already won the fight, right?

It's not too dissimilar from my proposal to give +regen from dieing things, which would make it slightly better in PvP and slightly worse in PvE, but on the other hand it is quite a bit easier to implement and less game-changing.

I do believe my priorly proposed animate energy cost tiers would be just fine with this system.

5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones.
10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror.
15: animate bone fiend.

upier · Apr 19, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I do believe my priorly proposed animate energy cost tiers would be just fine with this system.

5e: animate horror, animate bone minions, jagged bones.
10e: animate shambling horror, animate vampiric horror.
15: animate bone fiend.

So you are seriously suggesting that a system where a party of 8 has an additional force of 10 minions is so underpowered that it requires a buff?
There is a reason why minions should be costly.
They do damage and they provide protection.
25 for a fiend IS worth it!

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 19, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I don't understand how the word balanced applies to PVE. Basically, PVE exists purely for fun. If a skill like Ursan Blessing makes the game less fun for you then you won't use it. Another player's use of UB doesn't effect your enjoyment of the game one bit.

Ursan has lowered the value on just about all loot so it does affect everyone. Before, a full DoA run would get you back much cash. With Consumables/Ursan now, it's hardly even worth doing for profit.

Anyways, I don't see what's with all the fuss about Soul Reaping in PvE. No one's giving a real good reason why it should be changed. Anet created e-mangement skills for a reason, don't you think there's a problem when a class has so much energy that he doesn't even need to use those skills? My nec has SoLS stapled to most of his bars (even when I MM, it's not hard to use...) and has a high energy set. SR is fine in pve. Still though, I think the 25e cost of Bone Fiends are a joke. Sure they dominate in NM, but in HM they're trash.

The real nec issues are PvP based and it's alot more than just SR.

The Meth · Apr 19, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

25 for a fiend IS worth it!

It is when you get 10-12 back from SR, and have already gotten 10-12 back from the foe dieing. This change will make it so minions don't give SR.

MercenaryKnight · Apr 19, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I think pve soul reaping should go back to normal. However since they can't have 2 forms of soul reaping 1 for pvp and 1 for pve it can't be done. I also think the minion cap should go away. If a necro wants to use his elite for aura of the lich so he can keep up 15+ minions let him.

Hopefully they have learned from this and in gws2 there will be pvp skills and pve skills. Different mechanics for pve and pvp so nerfing one side won't affect the other.